TEACHER INTERVIEW
Verde Valley Country Day School
April 24, 1992
A. In the program we have here, we take a week off from school,
not a vacation time, it's actually just before spring
vacation, but it's not vacation time, and we take the kids to
different kinds of -- we list out and each faculty picks a
project they want to do. I go to the Sea of Cortez and we do
marine biology. The other teachers list theirs out and we
give it to the kids, and they have four choices, and they
usually get their first or second choice, so after all of that
process of choosing, and seniors get their first choice for
sure. Then we take a week and we go down and do that. We
have people going up on an archeology interim, we have people
ride horses across Monument Valley for a week, walk the Grand
Canyon, we've been down to the Havasupai reservation, I've
been to the Hopi Indian Reservation, and all the ghost towns
in southern Arizona and New Mexico and that's about it --
Hopi, Sea of Cortez, and ghost towns have been my three since
I've been here, for the last three years since I've been the
superintendent.
Q. And you have taught here seven years?
A. Yeah, I'm going into my seventh year.
Q. And how many years teaching experience?
A. I have six years of teaching experience, this is my sixth year
here. Total teaching experience is 11. Six here and five in
public schools.
Q. Okay. I don't know how much I told you on the phone about my
topic.
A. I sort of have an idea. You're trying to compare public
versus private, atmosphere?
Q. Well, teacher and principal or head of school sense of
autonomy. Ready? Can you tell me about an incident . . . by
the head of the school and an example might be how you select
curriculum materials, what you teach or how you teach, how you
group students, how you deal with discipline, how your classes
are scheduled, decisions about pursuing advanced degrees, how
parents communications are handled, does the head master
influence you in any of these and can you tell me about a
time?
A. Okay. I will say that there is influence by the headmaster in
communicating to parents on how kids are doing, getting back
with parents, we have parents calling here, and I mean, that's
the only influence that I can think of really. Every year at
the first faculty meeting he says, if a parent calls here and
notes are left for you, always call them back, and I generally
do, and maybe once or twice in my five years I've gotten an
answering machine and we never do get back together again.
But that's the only influence that I can think of XXX;
there's no interference in the classroom. You know, specific
incidents. I would keep it as a generality in that we are
allowed quite a bit of freedom as to what we do in the
classroom, we do outside the classroom too with kids, and the
only specific instance I can think of as guidance would be the
calling of parents, that type of thing. Now, do you want me
to talk about public school, my public school experience or do
you want me to just keep in here?
Q. I don't know. Do you want to leave on time? I do want to
hear about that. Incident -- school board?
A. Yeah. We were required to come in on the weekends to have
meetings for long-range planning and marketing. This was just
this past year. I mean, there were things that had to be
done, but at the same time, I have other responsibilities, so
that was very hard for me.
Q. With the results of those meetings and the marketing, did that
influence your work life?
A. It would have an influence on it say to the type of students
we were going after in marketing and long-range plans when
we're looking class loads and things like that, yes, but it's
not -- the board was nice enough to include teachers on it so
I know what I'm getting myself into as the years go on. But
at the same time, I'd rather be doing something else on the
weekends.
Q. What kind of students are they opening up their marketing to?
It sounds like they're opening it larger than --
A. Okay. I was born in private education, I'll tell you the
truth, I went to two private schools back east, one a day
school called Friends and West _______ Academy where I
graduated from, Friends was the number one school, I'll brag
about it, and still is the number one school. It has changed
quite a bit since I've been there. Larger classes, 30 to 40
students per class, believe it or not, they're keeping those
standards up. How they're doing it -- well, the teachers
there have that teacher aide that's a certified teacher, so
it's two teachers in each class, but I mean they're really on
top of it. They've got a waiting list like you wouldn't
believe. If you goof around there, you're out.
Q. What's their tuition like?
A. I would just have to guess, I would say probably $9,000 to
$10,000 a year.
Q. They have a waiting list for that? They're drawing from a
larger population?
A. Yes. I went to the _________ Academy from the 9th to 12
grade, and it's the oldest school in the nation, founded in
1744. Okay. Now, your question was -- something about the
school board?
Q. Oh, you went to the marketing meetings. I was asking you,
what kind of students are you going to try to get?
A. Students across the nation in private schools, because of the
economy, there are fewer families that can afford it. We also
have a lesser -- lesser money to give out for financial aid.
We're a private school but quite a few of our students here
are on financial aid. We have some people who pay full
tuition, but we have a lot of people on financial aid. But
over the years, things have worked out but now there is less
financial aid. So we're trying to open up our market and
really concentrate in getting more kids in the family
interested. So that's what the marketing is. Will it affect
me? Yes, if it doesn't work and we have fewer students, it's
going to be harder to pay all the teachers, so it's something
affects the teachers but at the same time I have to say, real
honestly, that I would rather they made that decision alone;
I appreciated the fact that they included us but they have the
control.
Q. How would it change your course load or wouldn't it?
A. I don't think it would. If anything, it would make our
classes larger. We're trying to get up to 225; we're about
183 to 190 in the last few years, that's the whole school, so
it would increase our classes a little bit.
Q. Incident -- state or federal programs, regulations or
mandates?
A. Not while I've been here. Now, sports are all co-ed; girls
have to be offered sports. I'm not connected with the sports
program in any way except as an observer; I used to keep score
for the basketball games. I'll tell you something that's
affecting me -- we've got some, I forget what title quote
unquote money it is from the public school, we're in the
public school district but we're not a part of it, but we had
title something money come to us to buy a CD ________, it's
$300. That's it. There is no state, federal or anything that
affects us that I can think of.
Q. Well, in deciding what course offerings, how do you --
A. That does influence what we offer. We'll offer the minimum,
which we call minimum to get the state requirements, so there
is something now. Our minimum requirement is to have three
one-hour credits, three credits in math by graduation. We
usually have students going four or five credits for math, but
our minimum for state is three. That's the only thing I can
think about.
Q. Incident . . . by legal or judicial judgments?
A. I can tell you one that happened back in public education.
Again, I would say that CD bond, the money coming to us,
affected us. No, not really.
Q. Incident . . . parents?
A. I offer kids that are exceptional students or gifted a chance
to go on, say they're pre-algebra, I'll push them into
algebra, but we had one student here this year and the father
and I went back and forth on this. He didn't know for sure
and I didn't know for sure, the kid was a seventh grader, and
mentally he's very capable of handling it, no problem. But
the father was worried about his mental ability and what it
would do to him socially. I was worried more about the
maturity level but it all worked out. He's in algebra I, he
stayed in pre-algebra until Christmas and then went on to
algebra I, and as far as increasing my workload, yes, because
I have to tutor him. I didn't push him into the other algebra
I, it would be better to keep him in the classroom; so he does
as much as he can in the classroom and then I help him during
the class or after the class, so that increases my work load
a little bit. But it's something I didn't mind doing because
if I kept the kid in pre-algebra, he probably would have been
bored, and I think he needed the challenge. That has happened
to me quite a few times in the past, but it creates a little
bit more work for me.
Q. Those have been your choices?
A. Yeah, I've never had it pushed on me. I'll take that back.
This year I did have a push-in but it didn't work out, the
kid's back in general math. And it wasn't by the parents --
I guess it was by the parents through the administration, that
circle, and I said we'll give it a try, but it didn't work out.
Q. Do parents tend to go through administration first when they
have --
A. Generally, because they're the first contact. They, in the
one case, actually the decision was decided before we started
the school year and I found out about it afterwards from the
administration. I said, well, let's just try it and see what
happens. I knew within a couple of days that it was not going
to work. The next one, parents at the end of the first
quarter, the kid actually came to me and wanted to go up in
general math, which is what I had last period in pre-algebra,
and I said, why are you doing it? You have an A in here now.
It's not going to be that easy. He said, I just want the
challenge. I said, okay. And his parents said okay. He was
getting Cs and Ds but they didn't want to put him back. He
was a good student where he was and finally the next quarter
they agreed to put him back. It's easy to push kids ahead;
it's like pulling teeth to go back, and it shouldn't be that
way in the math program, the way it's set up. Kids should
feel that they want to know it so they can go on. But it's --
you get a lot of resistance from the parents wanting the
students -- and sometimes the parents will readily agree and
say he/she can't go on. So we have had pressure from parents
to push kids ahead, but sometimes it isn't the best or hasn't
been, and it takes a longer time in a case where it hasn't
been to get them back to the right situation.
Q. Incident -- professional organization with which you identify?
A. I don't identify with any professional organizations.
Q. And no teacher's association?
A. No.
Q. Incident -- in-service training or your own continued
education?
A. This past summer I took a course and this past fall I took a
course and it definitely helped me in my teaching the third
year of algebra. It was actually math courses; it wasn't
education courses, and especially the linear ______ part. In-
service programs, we have a few here. They have helped me.
Basically our in-service for middle school, working with the
kids this age was a lot of help; the other one was counseling
of students, when to counsel and when not to counsel. We are
set up as advisors; I have eight advisees, seven of them are
seniors and I have one ninth grader, all of them are leaving
this year, and I'll pick up a whole bunch more next year. But
there are certain situations where you should ask how to help,
when does that come about; that was a good in-service, and
that's all. We have in-service on AIDS, I don't think it was
pursued far enough. I think -- we did an in-service on sex
education, AIDS education in the school, and I don't think
we're going far enough with that. Parents want to keep that
silent, it never happens to us. You know, as time goes on,
they find out it does happen to us. These kids are going to
grow up and I think they had better know about it. I think
every school is running into that. The woman who did give us
the talk was connected with the federal government and she was
also working with private schools and state schools, but she
gave examples in Utah (inaudible), sending literature, let her
give the talk. It's sad. You know, this AIDS thing, what was
the main thing the kids here, the biggest shock this year to
the kids was the basketball player, Magic Johnson. I mean,
our kids love basketball here and it was like somebody died,
a member of the school actually died right here in front of
them. They know about AIDS at a certain age level, but I
think they ought to know hey, it's something that can happen
and prevention -- this person that was giving this talk, her
son came in with AIDS, bisexual relationships, not bisexual,
heterosexual relationships, and he talked to his mother about
it before he died, the guy was out of high school and was just
about ready to get married when he found out he had it, had a
profession, was established. But anyway, he died.
(inaudible)
Q. Were parents at that meeting, too?
A. No, it was just an after school assembly. It was really
interesting; she said, if you see anything to do with blood,
you wear gloves. Hey, that's going to be tough. I was in
medical technology; I see some kids who are bleeding and I
know what to do; we don't have to -- it's something that you
have to think about and it's true.
Q. Incident -- students?
A. I think every teacher has classes some years that are just
exceptional classes, just a few kids who push the teacher to
go beyond the _______, I've had that happen here. I've also
had classes where how in the world did I ever get stuck with
these kids? The greatest quote I ever heard in my whole
career was "The parents who had this kid ought to be shot."
That kind of thing. Yeah, I think -- I've been pushed by
kids, exceptional kids, it's not them actually trying to push
you in the class, it's just they just demand so much more.
The classes that I've had with learning disabilities,
behavioral problems, I mean, they just drag the whole class
down, one or two kids, and we have them. That's what is going
on with private education, we're getting them here. We're
opening up our doors. We need the people here and the parents
are willing to pay the money. They think we can work
miracles. Sometimes we can; sometimes we can't. It's tough.
I never taught special ed. It's frustrating to me, I've never
had any courses on how to work with special ed students; when
I was in public education, there was special ed classes; by
the time they were mainstreamed in, you knew where the kid was
coming from, he was up to grade level. He was able to handle
the situation. I've had kids that by -- behavioral, emotional
problems that just drive you nuts. It would be frustrating
with some of them because you just couldn't reach them. They
would be frustrated, they would act up in class, there would
be a big power level, and I would just have to back off
(inaudible). I had one kid who held the class back and
believe it or not, this was a class of seven students, and I
had one kid in there who held the whole class back. Say we
usually finish 120 lessons in a year, that year we finished
90.
Q. And he was maintained at the school year by year like that?
A. No, one year, one year and that was it. Everybody decided
that there was no way we could keep him here.
Q. Incident . . . by colleagues?
A. My best friend just left this year, he was the head of the
department. He got a job working in the medical field. He
has taught for approximately 18 or 19 years, he was a teacher
of the year two years in Minnesota; I knew he was unhappy but
he did a good job and he also motivated the kids and teachers.
I took over as head of the department when he was gone. It
was frustrating in seeing that such a good teacher -- I mean,
he went out completely; he's working in the medical field, he
doesn't want to have anything more to do with education. It's
a case of burn out, it's a case of being given too much to do,
that type of thing. My sister and brother both teach in
private schools, and they say that's typical, have so many
things to do, you have burn out. People just wear out. He
wore out and he told me that he had been looking for years for
a way out of education and it's hard to see. I'll see him
this weekend and it's just hard to see him because we're still
good friends and everything like that, but I just can't talk
to him about education, he doesn't want to hear it. We would
have problems with kids or problems -- math problems that we
worked on, and now he's gone. I had another good friend when
I was teaching before, and we're still good friends, he went
out of it for more money, which, I mean, everybody considers
that, and yet he is still concerned about education, he is on
a school board and this type of thing. It's a different thing
with this other teacher. It was totally boom, I'm out. I
don't know if you've ever heard that one before. Did you ever
hear about that before? That's a tough one.
Q. But it's something -- a pressure that you feel constantly?
A. The pressure of having too much to do, yeah. My main goal in
life as a teacher is to educate the students, to go from point
A to point B in education; here I have other responsibilities
-- the interim director, head of the department, and you have
the other things that have to be done but the main part of it
is educating the students. I always have to use the weekends
to catch up but yet I never catch up. Are you in that
situation now working for your Ph.D.?
Q. Oh, yeah, along with work and it's been impossible.
A. Are you working full time?
Q. Well, full time for ASU supervising student teachers, but I do
make my own schedule and I do have shorter days. The student
teachers are done teaching and I don't have things that
teachers have to bring home. But it doesn't leave me with the
time to work on this until I'm done. That's why I started
doing interviews and that's why I got started so late in the
school year. I hear what you're saying. And I have had
private school background.
A. Where did you teach?
Q. I taught at Valley Jewish Day School in Phoenix which isn't in
existence anymore; I left before that. I loved teaching there
but I didn't want to work in this study with any parochial
school because there may be other layers that you wouldn't
find in an independent school. But I know because you have to
stretch and so many roles to play and --
A. What grade did you teach?
Q. Mostly sixth, seventh and eighth.
A. That's middle school; that's what I was when I started. It's
frustrating -- I mean, I don't let it interfere; I try to do
the best job I can in the classroom and I will say "No, I've
got to do this; this is what I'm here for." But I can't say
"No," and somebody else may end up doing everything. I just
have that feeling that if I say no, someone else is stuck with
the job, but sometimes you just have to say it.
Q. Can you describe out of your own experience or someone you
know directly a creative attempt made to improve the classroom
teaching methods, curriculum, or student achievement that was
thwarted or substantially altered by any of these sources of
influence, by parents, school board, head master?
A. I think the only thing that I could say in respect to that
would be micro computers. As head of the department now, I
could really go after some more software for programs in the
classroom. We have a computer room and that would make two
math classes available with computers. The problem is, the
money to buy the software is not there.
I'm able to buy some
software, got some free from the university, but I think money,
money
is the big question. (inaudible) I think the head screens and
keeps us away from parents who would stop some program. He
very much wants the teachers to have the feeling of freedom to
teach whatever they want to.
Q. Can you describe for me a failed attempt by any of these
sources to influence you that you resisted and what are the
ways that you have been able to work around that?
A. I can't think of any. There aren't any really to begin with
except the money issues. Maybe this would go back to having
parents saying "Push my kid ahead." I've not resisted that
unless it's a disaster from the word go, if the kid is just
not capable, he doesn't even know the basic stuff. So I've
resisted that kind of parental pressure to push their kids
ahead when the kid is not ready for it. I don't like to set
a kid up for failing and that's what I tell the parents. Then
I'll say, let's give him a test and see, you know; if he does
well on the test, if she does well on the test, I'm willing,
let's go for it. Finding a way around it and doing what's
best for the student. That's what comes first. At every
school there are parents who think their son or daughter is
gifted, you know, you get those, and you just have to deal
with them. I could see myself being that way.
Q. What does it mean to you when people talk about bureaucratic
constraints on teachers?
A. Do you want me to answer that like I've never taught in public
school?
Q. No.
A. Okay. Paper work. We have some paper work here but not
nearly as much as the public school. Bureaucracy -- I think
when you reach a bureaucratic situation is where you are so
far and you've tried so hard to talk to the people in control
or whatever that you can't get anything done. It takes months
to get a hammer and nail in the wall or something. It removes
you from trying to change something immediately that needs
changing. We don't have that here. We can go directly to the
headmaster and walk into the office and say "We have a real
problem; the roof is leaking," you know, or something like
that, or I've got this one student here, you've got to talk to
him, we've got to have a parent conference, that type of
thing; so there's no bureaucratic constraints here.
Q. Okay. Tell me about public school.
A. I taught in two public schools, one in New York, one in
upstate New York and one on the far east side, both of them
were small schools, a junior high, 7th - 9th, at that time it
was 400 students, bureaucracy, I feel the same way about that
school that I feel here. I could always talk to my principal
about problems and something would be done. I would have to
maybe wait until the afternoon or the next day, but the
administration there was very approachable, even the
superintendent whose office was right there in the school, so
that was good. The other public school back in New York was
K-12 all in one long building and they had about 600 students
there. I knew the principal, I knew the superintendent; there
was bureaucracy there because of the New York State Teacher's
Association and also regents. The worst problem I had back
there was regents courses, science courses, I was a science
teacher. We would spend four to six weeks reviewing -- are
you acquainted with the regent's course?
Q. I've heard that all high school students have to pass regent's
exams and there are exams in each course.
A. Right. I'll just give you an example. Earth science there is
a regent's earth science and there's a non-regent's earth
science. If you go that track, you're going into the
vocational track. New York track is very -- you would be
appalled. I came up against federal law in regent's science.
In New York state we had group one, group two, group three;
group one was kids of all ages, all exceptional; group two was
average kids that could be in regent's but wanted to be in
non-regents' group three was voc ed from the word go; they
were in the other class and they never mixed with others
except at lunch or PE, it was track from the word go. We
track even at this school, it's not intentional tracking, but
it's there. Kids that are in algebra III in the tenth grade
are on the exceptional track and they have all the classes.
But the regent's course, it was a very good science course,
but you spent four to six weeks at the end of the year
reviewing all these regent's books and questions that I
thought should be spent much -- so much in favor of saying
maybe take a week and just review, a week of review and spend
the rest of the time just teaching the material above and
beyond what you already covered. Generally all regent's
science teachers never covered all the material because we
just didn't have the time. So that was a bureaucratic hang-up
there --
Q. What about private schools there?
A. Private schools -- see, the regent's courses, if you had a
regent's department, you were quote, unquote, guaranteed a
position in the New York State University programs. If you
had a non-regent's diploma, you could apply there but you
weren't guaranteed. Private schools, the only one I was
involved with, I did apply for a private school job while I
was there at that school to see -- the parochial military
academy of all things -- and they had to deal with it too.
They offered regent's courses and that was it. Everybody that
was a science teacher in New York -- why can't I just teach
the course? And there was so much pressure put on by the
administration, you had to have such a percentage of kids
passing the regent's level course or they looked down on your
record. The funniest thing, two years after I left, somehow
somebody got a copy of the regent's exam in chemistry. They
published it in the New York Times. It was there before the
test was given. They have so many regent's exams and somebody
has to go over the question for all ten exams. The other New
York nightmare was you could have a kid mess around in class
the whole time, flunk the class for the year, take the
regent's exam and pass it, and get regent's credit. Now,
think of that; that was taught, but we had to do it. And they
had that attitude. They were not dumb kids. Smart kids said
I'm going to sit back here, I'll read the book, I'll do this
on my own, but I'm going to have a party. They cram for the
regent's exam and pass it. That is bureaucracy. And nobody
could fight it. People who were graduating had to wait three
months to graduate because they had to take those tests.
Q. If you look at this and just tell me, which of these four
activities do you feel you have the most control over, from 1
to 4, if you could rank them in order?
A. Oh, wow. This is hard to rank because I think have control
most over A, B and C, except D. I think I have control over
the selection of content, topics, and skills; control over the
selection of teaching techniques -- I select that; and control
over the grading practices -- I mean, I'm going to have give
every one of those ones. And the least control, I wouldn't
want to say a four, but I would say maybe a two or three.
Q. Okay.
A. Can I do that?
Q. Well --
A. Or do you want me to say A is 1 -- okay, all right. Let's go
1, 2, 3, 4. That's not necessarily true because I have
control over A, B and C.
Q. I was indicating a great deal of control. It doesn't mean you
don't have control over these things.
A. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this. Can I put a one here, and a
two here, and then a one here, or do I have to have one, two,
three, four?
Q. Say that again.
A. Okay. I have four choices. Do I have to apply all four to
these four categories? Can I have repetition?
Q. No.
A. No repetition. One, two, three, four.
Q. Okay. And the last is a two-question survey. I'll give you
my pen.
Q. Okay.