TEACHER INTERVIEW

Portales High School
April 21, 1992
 
 
Q.   Incident -- principal?  That might be the way you select
     curriculum materials, what you teach or how you teach, or how
     you group students, how you deal with discipline or behavior
     problems, how classes are scheduled, decisions you make about
     pursuing advanced degrees, how parent communications are
     handled; can you recall an incident in which the principal had
     some influence --
 
A.   I don't know.  See, this year really walking into a hornet's
     nest here because we just had a principal for the last three
     years that most people felt influenced in a negative way
     almost to the point of rebellion on the staff part with lots
     and lots of decisions made on his part without appropriate
     information, without -- and then influencing the way we work,
     he never followed through with anything, didn't open mail, was
     almost incompetent, so as a result the whole school was in a
     turmoil.  So that influenced so directly, it's not just one
     incident, people are just going to laugh over here because it
     was three years of the same thing, and it was only just
     recently when Cal came in that things are coming back to some
     kind of normalcy at this school.  So I don't know -- there are
     so many instances.
 
Q.   Maybe you could describe one instance that affected how you
     work and I wonder if you could tell me the mechanism that
     removed the principal.  Apparently that wasn't allowed to stay
     like that.
 
A.   Well, we couldn't work in any kind of normal pattern because
     people just viewed him as a very punitive and irresponsible
     kind of school leader.  So normalcy would be doing your work
     and being rewarded for positive things, but he would publicly
     renounce you, he would privately gossip, so the situation was
     so bizarre to work here that you really couldn't -- I mean,
     within the classroom you probably could do about the same
     things that you've always done if you felt that you were real
     effective, but I don't think that he came into the classroom
     and complained or criticized.  Although he did talk to kids
     privately and that influenced the way the students felt about
     you as their teacher, so it was -- and he aligned himself with
     parents, I think was one of the worst things that happened,
     and this is what happened with what I can tell you.  I am the
     student government advisor and he has aligned himself very
     strongly with the parents of the student that's president and
     others.  As a result of that, it was real difficult to be open
     and honest with students that I am working with because she
     could come back with information that this principal had
     discussed with her parents that was new knowledge to me; it
     was always like -- I don't if you could understand the
     situation, but it wasn't a free, real professional
     relationship with the students where you felt free to
     criticize the student, to correct, direct the student because
     the student always had an answer for you, and that answer was
     in part because of the close relationship between her parents
     and the principal.  So if we, the assistant principal and I,
     made a decision, it was not uncommon for her to go over our
     heads to the principal to have that decision overturned.  Very
     bad situation.  And this happened several times.  That's just
     one example of the kinds of bad management that -- and it's
     just too bad that you have to discuss a principal, but it was
     a sigh of relief when he was gone.  He works with us as a
     management team, another instance that was very, very obvious
     -- he stopped meeting with us, discussing things with us on
     pretenses that he was busy or whatever, and he was part of a
     management team of the school.  He could not work with the
     teachers because he felt that whatever he put on the table,
     they criticized, that was his perception.  On the other hand,
     he didn't have the perception of what a management team and
     chair decision was about, that he didn't go home and decide
     how to do something and then put it on the table for our
     approval, that it was chair decision, was actually coming
     together in a group to make a decision, not to discuss one
     that has been made already, you see, and that was his mode of
     -- he would just go home and do a lot of homework on
     something, and come back and say, well, this is the way I
     think, you know, what do you think?  Well, of course, we're
     not going to sit there and say well, yes, that's just fine;
     you know, we're going to, again, say, well, what is the
     problem?  That was always negative to him.  So he stopped
     coming completely.  And he would just do his own thing around
     us.  So he was working in a parallel way and effecting all
     kinds of decisions without our knowledge or approval, and it
     was kind of a sham, the whole chair decision, and so his
     actions directly affected the school because there was
     confusion, miscommunication, bad communication, a terrible
     situation here.  So that's what you're going to run into when
     you start to talk to people about the principal because as far
     as Cal is concerned, he's only been here now a few weeks, and
     we just have real positive things to say about him.  But he
     hasn't been here long enough this year to really effect any
     change or any impact on us other than to smooth things out.
     You get that by being organized, by communicating, by working
     with the management team.
 
 
 
Q.   The principal, although he affected the school as a whole, did
     he affect what happens in individual classrooms?
 
A.   Probably, but I really couldn't tell you with me, except for
     my student government class.
 
Q.   And what do you teach?
 
A.   Reading.
 
Q.   How many years?
 
A.   Over 20 years.
 
Q.   And how long at this school?
 
A.   All here.
 
Q.   Incident -- the department chair?
 
A.   Yeah.  I think our department chair happens to be a real
     effective, organized, intelligent woman, and she just is so
     good about accommodating you for schedule and classes you want
     to teach and giving you every opportunity that you want and
     never, never interferes, but always in a positive way suggests
     -- she hasn't with me as a suggestion that I could think of,
     although maybe she has in some ways suggested when we talk
     about books and so on make some suggestions, but never so
     overt that there was any -- never a conflict, never.  Just
     real positive.
 
Q.   Can you think of an example of a time when you had a positive
     influence?
 
A.   You mean other than the general?
 
Q.   Yeah.  A specific.
 
A.   It's really hard to recall a specific event because just every
     day that she -- for example, I do all the testing in the
     school and she's always been very pro reading and so -- that
     I had the extra period that I had to have in order to -- this
     is actually the period that I usually call kids in for a test,
     and I test everyone in the whole school so we always know the
     reading score.  We do that for the tests, we do that for the
     state, because we have an obligation to prove to the state
     that we have reading proficiency, and so those students don't
     test well are the students that I work with primarily.  I work
     with college reading students as well, but my target, always
     my first, is to discover who in the school needs to have
     reading and then provide the reading instruction for that
     student, so just by her backing and her support, that program
     has lasted for years and years.
 
Q.   How about an incident -- the superintendent?
 
A.   Well, that's such a general -- I mean, what he does with his
     budget and etc. influences what we do in the classroom, but
     not specifically, I mean, he's not singling out me, but there
     are general constraints.  The constraint would be budget,
     primarily budget and staffing.  There isn't any curriculum
     constraint that I could ever imagine.  Of course, his
     decision, too, to go to this shared decision-making has
     influenced what we do a lot but not particularly in the
     classroom.
 
Q.   Incident -- state or federal programs?
 
A.   Well, the state reading requirement has constructed the whole
     reading program in a positive way because it gave us the
     reason to test all students, the mandate to test all students,
     and to work with them to bring them up to grade level.
 
Q.   What about the school board?
 
A.   Again, in the most general terms, you know, the same thing as
     the budget and the staffing, but not a personal -- not that I
     could think of in a person way.
 
Q.   Legal or judicial judgments?
 
A.   Not me personally.  There are people that have had problems
     with a woman who has claimed that her student was treated
     differently because he was of a minority, actually it was
     Mexican derivation, and most teachers didn't even know what he
     was, I mean, it was something we really can't talk about, but
     there was a lawsuit responding to the charges and so on, I
     think some people will take advantage of some kind of legal
     affirmative action or whatever to advance a charge that
     probably has no relevancy but in this case that I'm thinking
     of it was an excuse for a witch hunt which has actually proved
     groundless but it has taken lots of money and lots of time.
 
Q.   Incident -- parents?
 
A.   Not me, I mean, just the general, you know, communication with
     parents, but I can't say it has any impact whatever; the
     feedback or communication I've had with parents has been so
     minor concern, homework or grades and etc., that --
 
Q.   Were there questions about homework or grades?
 
A.   Actually not.  Actually, it has always been -- I've always
     asked them to make sure the students do their homework and
     etc., and they've always agreed, there's never been any
     conflict that I can think of where parents questioned me about
     what I asked the student to do.  It's mostly when a kid has a
     report sent home that he's failing or he needs help or
     something, and a parent will respond and say what can I do?
     And my answer is always, well, does the student read at home?
     How much TV does the student watch?  They always agree -- they
     don't really -- kind of like apple pie and reading, they don't
     disagree with it; it's just that they're frustrated with their
     own ability to influence their children.
 
Q.   They haven't had any influence on decisions that you make in
     the room?
 
A.   Not really.
 
Q.   As far as what homework, what content you teach?
 
A.   No, nothing.
 
Q.   Influence -- professional organizations or teacher's
     associations?
 
A.   I think I go to a lot of conferences and I think I'm always
     influenced by new ideas, I mean, I always try to integrate new
     things or different or -- there have been so many and many of
     them subtle that I really couldn't isolate it, it's just that
     I'm always open to a better way to do something.  So there
     probably have been many in my past but I really can't take one
     instance and say it has changed the way I do something.
 
Q.   Teacher's association --
 
A.   No.
 
Q.   In-service training or your own continued education?
 
A.   Well, right now I'm a teacher trainer for the shared decision-
     making, so that has made me do a lot of homework and a lot of
     preparation, a lot of meetings, and a lot of research to give
     me the ability to share that with my colleagues.  That's been
     probably the most that I've worked with an in-service.
 
Q.   Students -- have students influenced your work life in the
     classroom?
 
A.   Yes, many times I ask them to do a critique at the end of the
     year, not the ones that have problems in reading because it's
     difficult for them, but the seniors that I teach, and I kind
     of respond and adjust according to their comments.  They
     always have a very minor nature though so they're not real
     significant but --
 
Q.   What might one be?
 
A.   I'm just trying to think.  It might be something like giving
     them more time to read a book or it might be -- there's so
     little that they really talk about, it's hard to --
 
Q.   Is that something you have done for them, based on that --
 
A.   For example, if they say they haven't had enough time to do
     this or maybe they would like to read another book in its
     entirety, I do try, I respond that way, sometimes it works and
     sometimes it doesn't, because it's never overwhelming, the
     whole class feels this way, it's usually a comment or two that
     will change something.  I think one thing I did, I used to
     have -- when they studied vocabulary, I would always have them
     write words for every sentence, and then they responded -- I
     think they thought it was just too much and it really didn't
     help them, so then I changed and had them choose five words
     out of the lesson that I gave them that they found difficult
     and use those words.  So they are minor adjustments, they are
     not major curriculum adjustments.
 
Q.   Incident -- colleagues?
 
A.   Only in minor ways.  I can't say that -- I'm the only reading
     teacher here, first of all, and there's not a whole lot to
     share, so I can't say that I have, only in ways of a personal
     nature, you know, not to do with the classroom but just kind
     of a support system and friends and things of that nature, but
     not in the classroom.
 
Q.   Can you describe out of your own experience or about someone
     you know directly a creative attempt made to improve the
     classroom, teaching methods, curriculum, or student
     achievement, that was thwarted or substantially altered by any
     of those sources of influences -- the principal,  the parents,
     --
 
A.   What I do in the classroom?  Anything interesting --
 
Q.   Any attempt made by yourself or another teach you know of
     where one of these influences go in the way and prevented that
     creative idea?
 
A.   No.
 
Q.   Not even with the other principal?
 
A.   No.  He did not.  His saving grace was that he wanted what was
     best for kids and he would never stop a creative idea in the
     classroom; that he wouldn't do.  He was just a poor organizer
      and incompetent as an administrator, but as far as his
     personal values of creativity of what you have in the
     classroom, he never did, no.  In fact, actually he would have
     been supportive in that area.  I've never had a principal or
     anybody that influenced me in the way of stopping me from
     doing something that was different.
 
Q.   Can you describe for me a failed attempt by any of these
     sources to influence you in which you've resisted that
     influence -- in your work life?  Rules, regulations, policies
     --
 
A.   Oh, I think this other principal was trying to -- trying to
     change academic life too quickly.  He didn't understand how
     things worked.  In other words, people can only handle so much
     change and so whatever idea he liked, he wanted to throw on
     the table and talk about implementing it in some way.  That's
     good in some ways but you have to really refine your thinking
     and when you influence a whole school, you have to do a lot of
     research and maybe pilot a little thing here or there, and
     maybe wait for that to take place before you come up with
     another -- pretty soon people were going like this every time
     he started to speak and it was almost a joke, because he
     couldn't integrate those things, he didn't have the ability to
     decide of the magazine articles and the ideas he had heard
     which were good and which were bad, or which might work.  So
     he wanted us very badly to do his hexter  plan, which is you
     meet with two classes for like six weeks at three hours
     apiece, and then get through with that, and we resisted that
     because we felt the teachers weren't ready for it.
 
Q.   How --
 
A.   When we discussed it, we always refused to discuss it and just
     told him that we wouldn't support him in that because the
     teachers -- we had gone to kind of a modified schedule and
     they were having problems just adapting and refining that
     schedule without hearing about another one down the road.  It
     just wasn't working, I mean -- he had ideas but he wasn't able
     to implement them or think them through logically and
     effectively to see how this could work, so he just threw out
     the idea and initially he would try to pick them up and do
     something with them, because we were positive people, but
     after while we could see that it was having a detrimental
     effect, people didn't want to hear it, they were confused,
     they just wanted to be able to do one thing well before they
     kind of thought about another idea.  So we did thwart him in
     lots of hairbrain schemes.
 
Q.   Were there any ideas or policies that he managed to say this
     is something you have to do and he didn't bring it up for a
     vote?
 
A.   No, he didn't.  You will do this kind of thing?  If he did,
     nobody ever did it.  They would just ignore him.  It was so
     overwhelming that he couldn't even begin.  I think one thing
     he wanted us to do was to call the parents of every student
     that was absent every class, and the teachers -- we said no,
     we would send notes home that said excessive absences or we
     would refer the students to the administration, but some
     teachers were pointing out that his policies were so
     ineffective he was able to contain the attendance, do anything
     effectively, so he had massive absences, and it would not be
     unusual for a teacher to have to make 20 phone calls a night
     and they didn't want to do that, and we said they shouldn't
     have to.
 
Q.   So they just didn't?
 
A.   They didn't.  And what we did -- we came with some compromise
     and we said no, they won't do this, but they will do this,
     they will write notes home, they will contact the counselor,
     and they will send progress reports home.
 
Q.   What does it mean to you when people talk about bureaucratic
     constraints on teachers?
 
A.   Probably the paper shuffle or where the tail wags the dog.
     Maybe, for example, for scheduling, where some administrator
     can't figure out how to do something and so then it becomes a
     bureaucratic constraint, where it really isn't.  For example,
     if one class wants to meet a half hour and one class wants to
     meet an hour and a half, another class wants -- you know what
     I'm saying?  So that if that particular class -- we've always
     heard, well, it can't be done, and I would consider that a
     bureaucratic -- I don't consider that a legitimate constraint;
     I consider it that somebody hasn't figured out the way to do
     it or it takes too much time to figure it out and so -- but
     that's the kind of thing that I would consider.
 
Q.   What do you mean by the paper shuffle?
 
A.   That there is so much involved -- well, for example, if you
     wanted to drop a student, then you can't just do it the way it
     simply says -- ten absences and out.  You have to make sure
     you have contact with the parents, number one; and then you
     have to write three referrals; then you have to do this; then
     you have to do that; that kind of thing gets in the way of
     real effective teaching because you have those kinds of things
     that overpower you and you're not going to carry through with
     it because it just takes too much time.
 
Q.   The last question I have on the card and you can look at it
     while I'm talking about it.  Could you rank the following
     activities according to the degree of control and discretion
     that you are able to exercise, with one of these four -- which
     would you have most control and which of the four the least
     control?
 
A.   Okay.  So they have to be one, two, three, four; they can't be
     all ones?
 
Q.   Right.
                    

 
Q.   Okay.  Good.  I have a brief survey with two questions.
 
A.   I guess I would have to give discipline a four because I can
     only do that to a certain extent and then we have to turn it
     over the powers.