We started a couple of programs here that --

     a couple of curriculum, our signature programs, an

     aeronautics signature program and law, and it's generally

     thing that goes through the school if kids are really

     interested in law, then they would fit into that program,

     but within the district we're talking about the open

     concepts.  So anybody in the district who is interested in

     law would come to Sunset and go through that program.  When

     we first talked about this, we were just going to do

     aeronautics and I'm the department chair for social studies,

     and I've always been interested in the law, and we have a

     junior course that's an elective in civil and criminal law,

     and it's always been one of the most popular electives.  Why

     do we have to limit just to one?  So now the other two

     schools are going to do one.  Why can't we have two?  I

     would like to do more related education and get support --

     because of him, we've got it.  Most of the stuff that I

     relate to as far as personal input, has to do with social

     studies because that's the area that I'm in, but we wanted

     to make a change with contemporary issues and I wanted to

     flip-flop a World History class, which was always taught at

     the freshman level, with the sophomore level class, the

     contemporary issues course, a lot of the kids coming in out

     of the middle school, it was like hitting a wall with this

     World History, it was pretty tough, so I wanted to flip it.

     In order to do it here, we would have to do it in all three

     schools, so I needed their support, but I also needed the

     principal's support, and I got --

 

Q.   Because kids would transfer?

 

A.   No, you mean, why we do everything the same?

 

Q.,  Uh-huh.

 

A.   Because it's district policy that you pretty much have the

     same level and that would be part of the reason that you

     would a kid from PV coming in and fit right in.  You

     wouldn't think that's a major process but it is, and by, not

     only was it supported by the department chairs by getting

     their support but by getting the principal's support, we

     were able to do it.  This is the year we actually did it, so

     we're not teaching World History this year.  We're teaching

     Contemporary Issues to freshmen and sophomores, in order to

     make the switch for that one year.  The Contemporary Issues

     course is a half-year and World History is a full-year

     course so each school is going to lose two teachers, okay?

     I didn't want that to happen.  I've helped in other areas,

     where a teacher will come in and need one other class and I

     have to have an opening, we'll go in and help get into the

     program that way; I've done that -- I'm going to need some

     help from the business department and English and whatever

     else out there to make some moves so I can keep these people

     on campus for a year, you know, for a teacher who can teach

     physical education and history, and there's an opening in

     history, we need to slide him over there, so I don't want to

     push this if we're not going to do that.  Well, that's

     another example of him saying go with it, do it, I'll back

     you up.  So I've changed -- I've seen what a principal can

     do.  Before I thought -- but there are just things that if

     you get the support of the administration, if you've got

     someone that's a go-getter, it will _______________ for the

     school.  Now that's coming from an oldtimer.

 

Q.   So a lot has to do with who the principal is?

 

      -- not that every time I got to him,

     he's going to say yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it, because

     he's not, but he's going to listen to me.  And if he doesn't

     do it, I'm going to know why.  And that's all I ask and it's

     usually all the teachers in general would want.

 

Q.   Incident -- superintendent?

 

A.   I can't think of an incident.  I'm sure that indirectly the

     district office has a great influence on what we do here,

     although I think it's getting to be less and less now.  I

     think you're going to see more and more site-based

     management, so I don't have a good example for you.

 

Q.   As department chair, how do you feel that you influence

     teachers with whom you work?

 

A.   I try to set the stage or the tone for the department as to

     which direction we're going.  I set goals every year, goals

     for me, and ask them for any input they might have, we type

     them up and as the principal gives me goals for the school,

     I do the same thing for the department so that they have a

     whole set of goals.  I do the scheduling, I'm up front --

     the department chair is pretty much the -- set up the

     schedules for the department, who's going to teach what and

     when.  If a parent has a problem with a teacher, they come

     to me first.

 

Q.   Before the teacher?

 

A.   They usually come to me first and if they haven't seen the

     teacher, that's the first step if for them to go back and

     see the teacher when I tell them.  Mostly likely they're

     going to be able to work it out by just talking with the

     teacher.  If they still feel that things haven't drawn us to

     the way they would like it to go, then we sit down with the

     parent and teacher, but I always want them to talk to them

     first.  I do a lot in the way of curriculum development.  We

     set up files for all the _________, various disciplines,

     whether it's world history or contemporary and American

     history, and I try to get them to share ideas -- if they

     come across ideas they really like, make some extra copies

     and put in the boxes for the rest.  We try and do a lot of

     that. 
     

     
       But I try and influence them

     towards -- not that we all have to teach the same thing the

     same day -- but we all have the same goals for American

     History, for example.  We decided -- they decided would like

     to do the modern American History rather than start from day

     one and get as far as they can because there's just so much

     to cover.  So I got with the middle schools and tried to get

     them to cover the early part, knowing that we would cover

     the latter part.  I sat down with them and asked what do we

     want to cover here?  And put it in a timeframe.  Not that

     you've got one week to cover Jacksonian democracy, but

     you've got one to two weeks to cover that because they just

     spent one week on it and that gives you two weeks to cover

     something over here, so we're all on a general timeframe and

     we're not spending five weeks on something just because we

     like cowboys and Indians, we're not going to spend five

     weeks on that.  But we might spend two and we spent three,

     so there's some leeway.  So I think I've influenced getting

     this whole thinking along the same lines better.

 

Q.   Incident -- school board?

 

A.   Well, anything new that develops has to come through the

     school board, has to get their approval.  We might start it

     here and work it out that way, but we have to get their

     approval.  Our school board has been pretty active,

     especially a couple people have very high interest in social

     studies, and one is -- this was years ago but we were

     talking about offering world geography, and he preferred

     that we offer world history, and we offer world history.

     That's an incident.  We've got an active school board but I

     think that -- this was maybe 15 or 16 years ago, and I think

     we're a little better organized now as to -- I mean, world

     history was great but most of the teachers thought that

     world geography should come first.  Now it's actually -- we

     offer world history but actually it's, because of the state

     requirements, it's world geography and history.

 

Q.   What is the state requirement?

 

A.   A year of world history and geography.

 

Q.   So you combined them?

 

A.   Yes.  And that's what we have.

 

Q.   Incident -- state or federal programs, regulations or

     mandates.

 

A.   Well, when they keep incidents, I don't know if these are

     really incidents, but the state is the one that wanted us to

     teach (state name) history and (state name) government but they never

     really specified as to how you do it.  My first -- we had a

     semester of (state name) history and government, it was a nice

     enough course but it really shouldn't have been a required

     course, I mean, there are things that you should know about

     your state, but maybe not a semester.  So this was a battle

     that we fought probably about five years ago.  That's when

     we came up with contemporary issues instead of (state name)

     history.  It was a deal where I had to get with the other

     two schools and we had -- out of the three schools, one

     school wanted to keep (state name) history, one wanted to toss it

     out completely, and we were kind of in the middle, let's

     keep parts of it but bring in some of the contemporary and

     historical issues  and tie it all together.  And that's kind

     of the way it worked out, it worked out as a compromise and

     the school board had a lot of input into it, parents group

     put a lot into it, the teachers did, and it was kind of like

     the constitutional convention, a series of compromises, you

     know, but it worked out to where it's really a neat course.

     We still had a battle at one time because one of the board

     members didn't like one of the topics we were talking about,

     and the teachers were ready to go toe to toe, this is a

     valid topic, we want it covered, and the school board said

     well, if you feel that way about it, go ahead and do it.

 

Q.   What was the topic?

 

A.   Education, which we couldn't understand, because one of the

     most important issues out there is education, so it's

     another reason why I wanted to flip it to the freshmen, I

     wanted the kids to understand how important their education

     is to them, and it -- I'll tell you a little more about the

     course in _____________ but this topic here had some neat

     things in it, we would compare us with the Japanese, let's

     compare us, what do they do right?  what do we do right?

     what can we learn from them?  is there something they can

     learn from us?  We talked about open enrollment, what the

     advantage and disadvantage?  Not telling the kids that these

     are the advantages but letting them come up with it.  The

     kids got excited about it.  I don't teach the course but I

     always kind of wanted to, but this education one was one

     that I was really supportive of.  When you sitting down

     there, ask the kids:  What's a good education?  What's a

     good teacher?  What do you think about teachers?  And let

     them come up -- go up to the board and tell me what is a

     teacher.  Well, teachers don't care about you, write that

     down; get the kids to really thinking.  Well, let's say you

     get a teacher like this that doesn't care about you and

     would rather be somewhere else, how is it going to affect

     you as a student?  When you get out in life, are you ever

     going to have people like that?  Maybe a boss who could care

     less about you?  What is your role in your own education?

     Because you're going to have some great teachers, too, you

     know, but try and find out where they fit into the

     responsibility.  You can't place it all on the teacher for

     your education, you're the one that has the most to gain

     from this, so where is your responsibility?  Let's say the

     teacher just has you read out of the book, is there

     something that you can do to go beyond that?  Things like

     this to get them pumped up about responsibility.  And from

     education you shift over responsibility to environment.

     This is the thing that ties all these issues together. In

     addition to the crime issues that are going on, we're also

     talking about two historical issues, we pulled one from

     world history and one from American history.  As you're

     going through world history, maybe you can't spend two weeks

     on an issue because you just have too much to cover, so we

     took the Holocaust out.  We still talk about it in world

     history but we know that in contemporary issues they are

     going to spend at least two weeks on it, really digging into

     it.  That was the world history that should have been pulled

     out.  We've had survivors come and talk to us.  People whose

     parents were in these camps have come and talked to us, you

     know.  Have we got some great videos, and it's just great.

     Well, we also have the American history unit.  And it

     doesn't have to be these two, but these are the two that we

     use the most often.  This is a survey course.  We can spend

     two weeks on it -- we've covered a couple historical issues,

     we've talked about the environment, we've talked about the

     importance of the kids education, we've done a little study

     skills.  The year that Europe was breaking up, we talked

     about that; the year that they were having trouble in the

     Middle East, a lot of things there; they're talking about

     what's going on in California now, so all of these things --

     I mean, it's a great course.  I don't know of any other

     schools in the state that has it.  We also meet our

     requirements for (state name), not only American history and

     government, but we have a little unit on (state name) ______

     which meets a requirement that the state asked of us, so we

     can do that.  We still meet the requirements, yet we have a

     better course for it.

 

Q.   A course description as opposed to a label?

 

A.   Yes.  The school boards have some input in this district.

     They're active.  A couple members really love social studies

     and they go beyond that, but I always think that what

     they're thinking about education down to my area.

 

Q.   This was state and federal regulations.  So they have some

     influence on your curriculum?

 

A.   Yeah.  We've got guidelines; we've got areas of things that

     we have to cover according to the state.  Textbooks have to

     be off of a list that would come from the state.

 

Q.   Okay.  Incident -- legal or judicial judgments?

 

A.   I can't think of one necessarily in the classroom.  A lot of

     times, the legal judgments that have to do with athletics or

     out on the playing fields or perhaps someone's who

     responsible or maybe where a kid got hurt or something like

     this, there have been some lawsuits there.  I'm trying to

     think of one in which it would be a classroom situation but

     I don't know of any.

 

Q.   How that affects what or how you teach in the class.

 

A.   A legal finding?

 

Q.   Uh-huh.

 

A.   Not that I can think of.  Do you have any samples -- maybe

     I'm just not understanding the question.

 

Q.   No, I'm trying to think if there are any legal or judicial

     judgments that would affect public school classrooms and not

     apply to private schools.  Or that would affect both

     regardless.

 

A.   Well, separation of church and state would be the first

     thing that would come to mind.  The private school can, of

     course, teach religion.  They can pray in schools.  Our kids

     pray in the school but it's not formally.  If a kid wants to

     pray before a test, there's no way in the world that I'm

     going to try to stop him or would want to or any other

     teacher.  But, at the same time, because of the various

     court cases, I'm not going to stand up in front of the class

     and read them the Lord's Prayer or things from the Bible --

     and I think that's the way it ought to be.  There are all

     kind of court cases at various levels -- I mean, and prayer

     still goes on and that's fine, too, if a kid wants to meet

     with others at lunch and pray, that's his right.  If they

     want to say the pledge of allegiance or don't want to say

     the pledge of allegiance, that's their right.  We say the

     pledge of allegiance every day, second period, but if I had

     a kid that was Jehovah's Witness, for example, I'm not going

     to run back there and say, you know, put my finger on him

     and say you're going to do this, it's not right that I do

     that, and the courts made that very clear.  We've had a

     moment of silence and the court has interpreted that word as

     silence, it's not a moment for silent prayer.  This

     district, unlike many of the other districts where they

     prayed at graduations and things like this, this district

     you don't do this that.  If a kid gets up and he's the

     valedictorian and if he says he owes it all to God or

     Christianity or whatever it is, there might be people that

     frown on that, but to me that's freedom of speech, that's

     what he wants to say, that's no skin off my nose, he might

     be wrong about it, but it's his right to say it.  I think a

     lot of times people don't understand that, though, that

     where as a teacher I don't want to lead them in prayer, but

     on the other hand they have the right to meet after school

     just like a club would or some foundation or the Boy Scouts.

     They pay the fee, whatever, to me it's all right to have a

     church do that or the kid's up there and he's giving a

     speech, that's his freedom of speech.

 

Q.   Are there any judgments that might apply to a private

     school?

 

A.   Not that I know of.

 

Q.   Civil rights?  None of those --

 

A.   You're talking about -- you mean not letting a kid in

     because of race or religion or -- I can't think of anything.

     I just can't imagine it not happening in this day and age.

     Do you know the private schools aren't guarded as closely

     along these lines as we would be?  The same thing with the

     special ed situation.

 

Q.   Incident -- parents?

 

A.   Well, I'm having a hard time thinking about any incident.

     But I do feel I have a good rapport with parents.  I've

     invited parents to come in and sit down and see what's going

     on.  At the beginning of the year we have an open house and

     usually by the time they get to be juniors and seniors, you

     don't see a lot of parents.  This school is a little

     different, though; I'm always amazed at the involvement of

     the parents within this district and I think that's one of

     the reasons we're where we're at.  But some teachers are

     intimidated by having a parent in.  I think that's wrong.  I

     think you want them there.  If you're doing a good job, you

     want them to see what you're doing.  You read in the paper

     what a rotten job we're doing and I'm sure we could better

     and there are a lot of areas that we could do better, but

     we're doing better than most people realize, I think.  Now,

     if you go back and compare what you were doing when you were

     in school with what we're doing now, they're doing things in

     calculus that there's no way -- they're doing things in

     algebra in the seventh grade that we used to do when we were

     juniors in high school.  So we're doing a good job; I think

     we need to let the parents know that; most parents think

     their school is doing great, it's just the rest of the

     schools that aren't.  I think it has to be a partnership --

     you can't put the whole load on the schools; the parents

     have to be involved, they  have to take responsibility, the

     kids have to take responsibility, and we as teachers have to

     take responsibility, so it's a team.

 

Q.   Do you feel that the community as a whole influences

     decisions that you make?

 

A.   Well, the classes that I teach are mainly advanced classes

     and the parents with advanced kids tend to be very active.

     We started a couple of clubs, like the 100 club for the top

     kids and the parents come to meeting and we get a chance to

     talk to them and they get the input.  Another thing, you're

     talking about the principal and myself and another

     department chair, we were talking about what else we could

     do for these high-powered kids, you know, to get them to

     think about taking the tougher classes, to get them thinking

     about their future in college and careers, maybe writing

     essays, trying for scholarships -- I just had a kid tell me

     yesterday he had just won $5000, and I felt really great

     about it because it was a kid out of my class and I talk to

     my classes about how they need to try and do these essays

     because there are contests coming up all the time, we work

     in American history writing essays, you know how to do it,

     spend two, three or four hours and maybe you'll win some

     money -- only if it's only $500, where are you going to get

     that for an hour or two hours work?  It really made me feel

     good because he came to me and said, "I want to thank you."

     I said, "What's that?"  He said, "I just won $5000 on that

     _________ American Institute essay that you asked me to do

     and I really appreciate your help because you gave me some

     information on the federal _____ and so on."  So he's got

     $5000 and he's a junior in high school.  I've talked to the

     parents at these meetings, push your kids unless you're all

     rich out there and you don't need any help for college, have

     them try for these things, somebody wins them, and our kids

     can do it.  I think the parents -- you see them more on

     campus.  Yesterday there was a bunch of cookies up front --

     a mother's group, cookies for the teachers.  We have a

     parent council at the district office in which the parents

     are on committees, not only parents but mainly parents, I

     would think, people here in our area who are interested in

     education and they meet once a month and a lot of the new

     programs go through them to find out what they think about

     it, not to necessarily get their approval but that's what we

     tend to ask for, but to get their input, and it's just

     another stage of development of getting new programs.

 

Q.   Incident -- professional organization with which you

     identify or a teacher's association?

 

A.   Well, our TA is very active and it affects my work life

     every day.  I'm a department chair and we have such a large

     department, almost 20 people, where I might be in another

     school district where I wouldn't get any preps (?) and I

     wouldn't get extra money, I get extra money and extra preps

     because of this.  I'm still teaching but I've got many more

     responsibilities as department chair.  I've noticed that

     this school district is different than a lot of other school

     districts and even this school to some extent is different

     than the other schools.  The principal that I have now seeks

     input from the department chairs, relies on the department

     chairs, gives us added responsibility.  I run the signature

     law related program, for example; the math department chair

     runs the aeronautics signature program; we both sponsor the

     100 club.  Getting back to your question about the

     association, though, we haven't gone out on strike or

     anything like this, but we do have a bargaining agreement

     and we abide by it and they abide by it, and it's a pretty

     strong agreement.

 

Q.   Incident -- in-service training or your own continued

     education?

 

A.   Some of the educational courses that I have taken later on,

     not the ones at ASU, Ottawa University, I teach for them

     now, but I started out taking some of those and it wasn't

     like a high-powered thing but you had so much exchange of

     ideas, meeting with other teachers and picking up ideas, and

     the whole role of education I have changed throughout the

     years by going to some of these courses and listening to

     different ideas, and I don't, you know, there's so much

     criticism out there that you can take a chip on your

     shoulder and say "you guys are crazy, you don't know what's

     going on," or you can learn from it, you say, "Yes, you're

     probably right in some of these areas but do you realize

     this aspect of it?"  Or you can go out and let people know

     about the good things that you are doing and at the same

     time acknowledge criticism and accept some of it and try and

     overcome -- not necessarily overcome it -- but do something

     about it, making changes that need to be made and so on.  I

     think the courses that I have taken at Ottawa, not

     necessarily the professor or the teacher, but the other

     people in the people that you can share ideas with, I've

     really enjoyed those.  In-service generally is a waste of

     time, to be honest with you.  There are some good ones --

     what we try to do is do less in-service, and the in-service

     that we do we do it more here at the local level where I can

     get all the world history teachers together and let them do

     something as a group, all the American history teachers as a

     group, rather than give some pep talk or the latest thing

     down the pike that is real new now that 20 years from now it

     will be something else coming down the pike.  So I think in-

     service generally tends to be a waste of time.

 

Q.   Incident -- students?

 

 

A.   There are probably so many -- the thing about education is

     that the kids really keep you young -- everybody says well,

     you see big changes, kids are different, and I guess they

     are but kids are still kids.  I don't -- an incident -- my

     memory is so shot, which is pretty bad for an American

     history teacher.  When a kid will come up to you and tell

     you how much he appreciates what you're doing, to me there's

     nothing better.  I don't coach -- I used to coach football

     and track, and I remember, you kind of get a different

     relationship once you're a coach and once you're out there

     doing that, and you see the kids in a little different

     light, and I've always enjoyed that and the give and take

     that you get from the kids.  Teaching the advanced classes

     in many ways is like coaching, you've got a different type

     of kid there and you're pumped up and basically you're

     coaching them.  I get a lot of satisfaction with the

     interaction with the kids, I like the kids, I'm considered

     tough, and there's times when I think well, maybe I

     shouldn't have done it, maybe I should give them a little

     bit more rope, but --

 

Q.   Tell me about adjusting.

 

A.   Well, little things like if -- I'm pretty much a bottom line

     type of guy and I expect a lot out of the kids and if it

     looks like we're getting down towards the end and it looks

     to me  -- I remember I asked one of my classes to work on

     this and I've asked them a couple of times and they're great

     kids, but just first hour and they decided that they'd

     probably get it done, but when I collected them that period,

     it shocked them.  Some got zero.  Well, I thought about it a

     little bit later on, of course my other two classes got the

     word so boy, they're boom, boom, boom, so I collected

     theirs, too -- or I didn't collect theirs, but I knew that

     later on I would be able to adjust to where I could get my

     first hour back with the other two as far as assignment here

     or there.  I told them today that I was going to give them a

     little extra credit -- it's a high powered -- it's a

     college-level course, I don't know if you're familiar with

     AP, and adjustments that I have made there --

 

Q.   You teach three AP classes?

 

A.   Yeah.  And it's high-powered.  We're going boom, boom, boom.

     (phone call)

 

Q.   By high power AP class --

 

A.   We're talking about adjustments and things like this?  I

     don't know if this is quite what you meant but I'm covering

     so much so fast and much of it is lecture and I'm not sure

     that's the best way to do it but it's the fastest way that I

     can give them the most information, and I'll be lecturing

     and I'll say some stupid things where we can kick back for a

     minute or so and relax, let our hands relax and so on, and

     they'll end up half the time copying down something that

     I'll say.  Once we were talking about Jackson and Calhoun at

     the Jefferson Day dinner and Jackson got up and gave a big

     speech which really kind of slammed -- a toast that slammed

     Calhoun -- a toast, a toast, jams and jellies, that's what

     you put on toast -- and the kids were writing it down.  Then

     they started looking up -- and I'll do things like that and

     it's really corny, stupid things, but it will get them to

     kind of relax and then we get back to it again.  I try to

     make a change of pace, not only lectures but in other things

     that we do because it is very high pressured, I mean, I

     couldn't have done what they've done at their age.

 

Q.   The three AP courses, are they all the same?

 

A.   Yes.

 

Q.   You have that many students?

 

A.   Yes.  This is the most we have ever had.

 

Q.   How many are in those classes?

 

A.   Right around 80, 85, something like that; I've had a few

     drop out, but this is the most I've had -- I'll have two

     classes again next year.  I intend to have two but this is

     kind of a high powered class and also I think if we did a

     little different with the 100 club, we would push them and

     challenge them, but this year we had so much going on that I

     don't think we did that with those sophomores this year, so

     next year I'll be back down to two, but I think pretty soon

     it will be three regularly.

 

Q.   Incident -- colleagues?

 

A.   Shaped by colleagues.  Well, in this department we have

     almost 20 people in it and the neat thing about it is that

     everybody likes everybody.  I mean, it's not that we're all

     buddies and we go out all the time together, although we do

     that in this department most than most do, go out and head

     up to Cave Creek and hit a few bright spots up there, we'll

     do that.  We're not afraid to share ideas.  If something

     neat is happening, then tell someone else about it and say

     why don't you try it or I did this or that.  We talk a lot

     at lunch.  Two lunches out there in my department and if

     they don't eat out there, they hurry up and eat and get back

     and talk together, we don't need department meetings because

     most of the stuff we talk about before school, get here

     early, and the principal will be down here with us at lunch

     or he'll -- he tends to hang out down here, too, and I think

     it's because we do so much as a group.  I think the way that

     we influence one another is trying to do it by making -- not

     telling somebody you want this, but just demonstrating the

     duties in your department and we've got certain standards

     and so on, so I don't know of any incidents, but it's

     probably just the whole broad spectrum.

 

Q.   Okay.  A little bit of a different question.  Can you

     describe -- a creative attempt made to improve the classroom

     teaching methods, the curriculum, or student achievement

     that was thwarted or substantially altered by any of these

     sources of influence -- school board, principal, parents,

     students?

 

A.   Your question is something that we tried to do but couldn't

          because of outside influence?

 

Q.   Uh-huh.

 

A.   I can't think of anything -- we've always gotten support

     from the administration and, really, from the parents when

     they realize what we want to do.  We've done some neat

     things, like set up a Holocaust day when all day long -- I

     think we had a series of 30 speakers -- and we did it

     through the social studies but we did it for the whole

     school, and we would have a speaker down in the auditorium

     maybe talking to 300 kids, another speaker in the media

     center talking to classes, and a couple of other individual

     speakers within the classroom, and these are some of the

     neat things -- we've done that for the Holocaust, we've done

     that as a law day with lawyers, judges, policemen, we even

     had a felon out here.  I can't think of anything that we

     haven't gotten support for.

 

Q.   Everyone you mentioned back earlier was about world history,

     world geography --

 

A.   That had to be 16 or 17 years ago and this district has

     grown so much since then.  This district used to be, when I

     first came into it, it was a very small district, it was run

     by a school board that was a bunch of good old boys and we

     know the best way to do it and so on, but I think because of

     the association of ________________, the teachers were able

     to band together, do some neat things, we have elected

     people to the board who are supportive of kids; we are very

     active in that way.  We'll get out and campaign for people

     that we want to see on the board and we'll campaign against

     people we don't.  The public, for the last ten years, at

     least, probably more so than that -- the board has been very

     supportive, not that they're going to give us a million

     dollars for teaching and that's not what we want them there

     for, but they've been very supportive of the kids and the

     teachers.

 

Q.   Can you describe for me a failed attempt by any of these

     sources to influence you that you resisted and what are the

     ways that you have been able to work around those influences?

 

A.   Well, I think the incident that comes to mind is the one

     that I mentioned about contemporary issues.  We had a lot of

     outside pressure, include this and include that type of

     thing, and one of the board members -- and I don't want to

     say it unfairly because I might not have gotten the whole

     story -- didn't want the education, that these kids wouldn't

     enjoy it, it was boring, and I said, "Personally I will get

     three departments in schools and we will come to the next

     board meeting and we will go toe to toe on this."  And he

     got the word and we had a board meeting.  And we were

     serious -- we were in such a great issue that  -- I want

     parents and I want school board input, but I want teachers

     input, too, and we're the ones that are there in the

     trenches.  Usually if you sit down and you -- let's sit down

     and listen, let me explain what we're trying to do here, you

     know, and they --- see the reason behind it and why it's so

     important.  But they backed off on that one, but I'm sure

     there are other incidents.

 

Q.   What does it mean to you when people talk about bureaucratic

     constraints on teachers?

 

A.   Well, I tend to think of all the paper we push, taking

     attendance -- sometimes I wonder why we should even take

     attendance because once we take it, there's restraints upon

     them as to what they can do up front, I hear teachers

     complain about kids that have been gone so many times, why

     is he still here?  Well, the other side of it is that it's

     not real easy to do anything about it because of all the

     laws that the state and the nation -- the restrictions that

     we have.  I would like to see us get away from the paper

     work, get away from guidance from up above, I want to see us

     go to school site-management, where we know the individuals

     needs here for this school, the type of student body that we

     have and we work as a group here at the school, teachers,

     kids, parents, and administrators all together, striving for

     what's best right here at Sunset.  We're already starting

     to do some of that.  We're a strong enough school that we

     can do some of that.

 

Q.   When you talk about "guidance from up above" and all the

     paper work, is that a result of state and federal guidelines

     or does all this influence come from your district

     administration?

 

A.   Both.

 

Q.   Is your district responding to state and federal and feeding

     it down to you or do they have their own stuff?

 

A.   Well, they've got theirs, too, but it's both.  And I don't

     want to be too harsh on them because they're probably in the

     middle of this thing, too, they get guidelines that they

     have to pass on.  You know, we've got requirements that you

     have to meet through the state and there's nothing wrong

     with that, there ought to be some guidelines for us, but I

     would prefer to see, as we were talking about earlier, about

     teaching American History where you can spend two weeks on

     this topic or you spend three, but don't just spend one,

     don't spend a semester, but some leeway, and I think we need

     more of that from up above.

 

Q.   The last question I have a copy for you to look at.  If you

     could assign a ranking of these four activities from which

     you have the most control to least control.

 

A.   Do you want me to go one through four on these or can I give

     them all ones, for example?

 

Q.   No, one through four.

 

A.   That's what I was afraid of.  I'll tell you what -- we, as

     teachers, have a lot to say about all of these.  So I would

     want to say that up front.  And I think that's the way it

     should be, too.  I would say that the one we have the least

     control would be the discipline of students.  I don't think

     we have any major discipline problems but that's pretty

     standard as to what you do when, that's what I mean by least

     control.  There are certain restrictions on grading

     practices; most of it is common sense, and there's no

     restrictions as to whether you do percentage or you do

     points, or you've got to have 50 percent on the test or

     anything like that, but there are restrictions schoolwide as

     to grading for each nine weeks as to how they're going to

     add up, in other, two-fifths, two-fifths, one-fifth type of

     deal, so there are restrictions in that that you just can't,

     for example, give a kid an A because he did well on the

     final exam and forget about his first two nine weeks.  There

     are not restrictions of anybody telling you what you do in

     the classroom though as far as your grading; you can do it

     any way you want.  I still probably would rank that 3,

     though, because of the minor restrictions.  Probably A would

     be 2 because we've got some general guidelines, not only

     through the state, but we've got here as a department and as

     a school district of topics to be covered in the various

     courses, no matter what we might teach. As to how much time

     we spend on them and as to how we cover them, that is up to

     the teacher, so I would say that B, then, would be the one

     that we have the most control, make sure I'm reading this

     right, that we would have the most control on deciding B,

     which would be selection of teaching techniques, as to how

     we're going to teach it, when we're going to teach it, and

     how much we're going to teach.

 

Q.   Here's a two-question survey.  Please fill it out.

 

A.   But to me, what I think of private schools, and I don't want

     a generalization, but I tend to think they're more

     conservative in nature, may be more religious in nature, so

     they're going to have their own restrictions.  I don't

     know -- and nothing bad about it, but I don't know if you go

     over here to Scottsdale Christian if they would even

     consider showing __________________.  The reason I held him

     off because I just got it in and I wanted someone to preview

     it first, and I'm not sure whether we're going to put it

     into sociology or into our psychology course, or it could be

     in one of our law-related courses.  To me, we have more

     freedom in that way than Scottsdale Christian, Brophy, or

     Xavier, especially at this school, and I'll take our kids,

     like I said, I'm teaching three AP classes, I had 44-45 kids

     take the test yesterday, and my buddies down at Brophy a

     couple of years ago they were bragging because they had

     three kids take the AP exam, okay?  So my kids are doing the

     better job.  You know, I'll go toe to toe with this school

     with any school in the state.

 

Q.   If a school -- I'm not looking at Parochial -- but if a

     school like Crestwood Country Day were to accept vouchers and

     participate in total open enrollment and school choice, do

     you think they would look like Sunset?

 

A.   It's been a long time since I've been down to Crestwood

     Country Day and I'm not sure the clientele is that they

     have, I mean, I've got an idea of what they have.  It

     depends on how they sold it.  See, I think if they want to

     go to open enrollment, let's do it on a fair field, let's do

     it on strictly a level playing field.  We'll -- if they'll

     put us and take off our restrictions, which I would like

     first, or give them the same ones we have, with this faculty

     we have and the administration we have, there won't be

     anybody who's going to touch us.  We've got some go-getters,

     we have the signature programs that are just wonderful,

     we've got our AP program, we're doing some things, like I

     said, on the 100 club, this school could really go, if they

     really take off, that's  why I would like more and more to

     see site-based management because we've got the people here

     that want to do it and are real enthused about it.

 

Q.   What about size?  Do you think that maybe is the difference?

 

A.   Well, I'm sure it is, to a big degree, when you've got a

     school -- I don't know what their population is, you

     probably do, is it 800 or less than that or --

 

Q.   The high school?

 

A.   Yes.

 

Q.   Probably under 300.  It's going to be hard for them to come

     up with three classes of AP in American History, let alone

     three classes of American History.  If they get the right

     kids in there, they could have 3 AP classes.  I'm sure size

     has a lot to do with it but when you're talking about

     restrictions being taken off, then our size won't go down, I

     wouldn't mind seeing the school down a little bit in size; I

     can see us fighting for the same kids, and to me that's -- I

     don't have a problem with that.  Maybe if I was down in an

     inner-city school and I know I would be at the bottom of the

     barrel no matter what I do, I think those people are going

     to feel bad about it.  But for us up here, we're going to be

     all right, we're going be better than all right.  We have a

     lot of kids that come to -- their parents live in this

     district because of this school.  I've done real estate on

     the side for 15 years so I know from showing houses and so

     on, they want to know about Sunset High School or 

     CCC Elementary School.  It used to be -- 20 years ago it

     was Scottsdale, but it's not that way now.