Unfortunately, at the expense of the
counseling department, because the advisory program was put
in place in place of a counselor; and the board has
approved. Mr. XXX, our principal was spearheading, and
he did get permission of the board to do it, even though it
meant working the system a little bit. It is a pilot
program, but it's not being called that; because if it were
called that, he would not be able to do it in the middle of
the year. That would not be permitted because of the
contract, but by calling it an innovative program, he gets
around that particular portion of the agreement. The board
did approve this program; so by the board approving this, he
got the backing that he needed. Yes, that has affected us a
great deal this semester, because we have had to back track.
A whole group of our students, our seniors, were given to
somebody else. That made a profound affect on them.
Q: They advised them for college, by the same advisors?
A: Well, yes, so the seniors that we have been working with...
The program was instituted in January with the seniors, and
essentially we stopped being counselors to those seniors.
There were 12 advisors, and the senior class was divided
among those 12 advisors. The good aspects are that those
teachers are usually senior teachers and have access to the
kids a little bit better than we do; and some of them aren't
even in the class. There's a little bit more of a personal
touch, perhaps, than I could give my seniors, given the
number that I work with. The program can be successful; but
because of the decision to do it at this time in place of a
counselor, it has been difficult for us. It's been hard on
us. It's kind of negative, because the program hasn't been
done to our advancement, and I think the board agreeing to
allow Joan Stallard to go ahead and do this puts us in a
position of a lack of communication. You know, who can we
complain to? The board approved, and the board is
essentially running the district. So, you know, to answer
your question, that's one example of my situation when we
have been influenced by a decision the board made, even
though the provocation was the immediate principal. It
probably can work. It can work, and it is going to take us
awhile. It may not be able to work with us, with the
existing counselors because it left a bad taste. You know
you have to get over that hurt, and there are some people
who were hurt. (inaudible sentence)
Q: Can you tell me about an incident in which your work life
was influenced or shaped by state or federal programs,
regulations or mandates?
A: I probably could if I thought about it.
Q: Have you followed any guidelines?
A: Well, I know that in terms of my certification, I've had to
follow the state requirements to become certificate; and in
that aspect I've had to give certain classes. Everybody has
to follow that. Curriculum-wise, when I was teaching there
were certain things I had to teach when I was a fourth grade
teacher. I simply had to (state name) history, that was a part
of the curriculum. It wasn't a hardship, it was just
something that we did.
Q: Is there anything in counseling?
A: In counseling we have the school. There are certain things
we have to follow, like in terms of graduation. There are
certain requirements that are state... uh four years of
English. You have to have a certain amount of math, you
have to have a certain amount of science, so part of our
role is to see that kids take those kinds of classes and to
see that in the four years they have enough credits to
graduate. That's simply one of the things that we do. I
mean, I can't say that... It's not the state reaching in
and grabbing me and manipulating my job. It's simply...
Q: But you are talking about things that don't affect private
schools? Certification doesn't... (inaudible) requirements
for graduation?
A: I'm sure they have to. But you see, they only have to meet
the... For instance, I know in our district that we have
some requirements that are not state requirements. We have
exceeded the state requirements. Every school has that kind
of control. But in a public institution that is very true.
We simply have to follow. Now, the private institutions, in
order to be accredited, they probably have to follow certain
regulations but may have more leverage than we do. I don't
know. You're going to find out, aren't you?
Q: As far as the requirements, how much influence or what kind
of influence might there be from colleges?
A: Oh, I think we're seeing that here in this school. We have
a large number of our kids tell us on their checkout sheet
that they are going to go to college. We have a good 70-75%
of our kids who either will go to a two-year or four-year
college. Usually, it breaks down to maybe 38% to a four-
year and maybe 35% to a two-year. It's usually in that
range. Now, I have to be honest with you. My feeling is
that many of them do not finish. We have a large population
that talks college. In fact, we've often said here that
there are 30% who are never going to darken the doors of a
college, because if you have 70-75% of your kids talking
college and 25-30% who are not, it must be very difficult to
be a student like that at Sunset. Most kids are talking
college. Now even my kids who are failing algebra talk
college. I mean like, what's the reality here? This is
where you have to sit down and talk to kids and say, "Look
it, you know you're talking one thing but your behavior is
showing something else.
I think that because most of our
kids talk college, we do have an academic program that is
very heavy in that regard. We have more advanced placement
classes being taught. We have a number of A level classes
that would be appropriate for a kid going to a four-year or
to a highly selective school; and we put a lot of emphasis
on that, because the public is asking us to. That's the
public that asks you for education. That's the part of the
public that says, usually it's those parents and those kids
who want more education. So, we're putting more emphasis
there. We don't have as vocal a public saying, "Wait a
second, my kid's not going to college. I want you to
provide more vocation type services." Our public isn't
that. But again, I question this. I would love for this
district to do a long term study on what happens to
graduates in three, four or five years. Because my gut
feelings is that.... I don't think it's just Sunset High
School, I think it's general. I think a lot of kids start
college, but not a whole lot of them finish, which might be
okay. Maybe that's all right too.
Q: Can you tell me about an incident in which your life was
influenced or shaped by any legal or judicial judgment?
A: I'm trying to think. Umm, I'm sure there have been, but I
can't think of any at the moment. I can't think of any that
have affected. I remember when I first started to teach we
prayed in the classroom. We don't do that anymore. Uh, no
I'm not thinking of anymore.
Q: Can you tell me about an incident in which your life was
influenced or shaped by a professional organization with
which you identified, or a teachers' association?
A: I was more active in the teachers association a number of
years ago and probably made a lot of professional contacts.
So, yes, I think that is always when you are able to reach
out and talk to other people in your profession or someplace
else in the school. I was active in the (state name) School
Counselors Association many years ago and was an officer.
We met monthly and included people from Tucson. That became
like therapy, because it was just counselors from different
places. I presently belong to a women's educators sorority
and have just finished serving as president for this
biennium. As president I have to do a little bit more, in
terms of attending meetings, and all of these women in this
sorority are in education. For the most part, these women
are a little older, and it brings me in touch with women in
education in all the districts and at all levels. I think
that is very helpful. It is just helpful to get together
with people and talk business. We have noticed it within
our own sorority that because we do have maybe four or five
school districts represented in our membership, and our
membership is maybe 20 people. There have been times after
our business meetings when we just want to talk to one
another and gossip. You know, talk about what's happening
in the (city name) Union District and what's happening with
negotiations in the Paradise Valley. I think I have been
influenced by those kinds of contacts.
Q: Can you tell me about an incident in which your life was
influenced or shaped by in-service training or continued
education?
A: Oh, always. I think that any kind of study done always
influences me. I approach education that way. I think
there is always something I can learn. For a period of time
I did not take classes when I first came to Sunset, because
I was so busy here, that I just did not do that. But up
until that time, I was able to take some classes that were
helping me in the classroom, because I was teaching. I
remember taking the statistics, actually it was a behavior
modification class that I first became acquainted with
criteria and reference testing. We had to do a baseline
reading, and one of the things I chose to do was to modify
my behavior with running. I was starting to do some
running, and we had to time a certain activity. I look to
that class, and I remember that I didn't like the class,
because we didn't like the instructor. We targeted him as
one of the new Ph.D.s. You know, you work so hard to get
your doctorate, and it's like once you've gotten it, you're
there, and there's no (unclear). I remember that there was
a revolt in this class, and one of the things that I did was
to start to run more, so that was what I was using for this
activity for this project. Subsequently, I run to this day.
I became a runner. I don't know that that would have
happened. It just came together, and as I started to do it,
I got better at it. When you reinforce yourself you get
better at it; and I have continued to do it. I have run
some 10Ks and __ K's. It became a behavior form. That was
just an aside, but it happened as a result of a class.
Another thing I can think of, I am just so computer
illiterate. One of the problems in this department is that
we have not kept abreast of computer literacy; and a few
years ago... I have a responsibility here with
scholarships, and I have tried to use the computer, and I
just was not being successful, so I took a class. I taught
myself through the class and a lot of work on my own, I
taught myself how to use the MAC. There is still a lot to
learn, but again it was a refreshing experience to be the
learner again. It a very ignominious position sometimes.
Q: Can you describe an incident in which your life was
influenced or shaped by parents.
A: My own parents or parents now?
Q: Parents now (of the students). In what ways do they
influence your work?
A: Well, I think they do influence. Especially in this world,
because it's so easy to know what it is you're supposed to
do in counseling. Then every now and then you talk to a
parent who kind of jogs you, and you realize you're not
meeting their needs. There is something more. And mainly
it's a difference between guidance and counseling. I know
what I need to do in terms of the guidance aspect. I think
I know. And sometimes you talk to parents who are so
wrapped up with a dysfunctional family or a dysfunctional
kid that the fact that the kid is failing algebra doesn't
amount to a hill of beans. There are other issues. If the
kid is not going to graduate, well, that's important, but
not the most important issue. Sometimes in talking with
parents I am reminded that there are other issues.
Sometimes you get away from that, because you spend so much
time talking to people about the academics and about the
guidance, because that's the bread and butter of what we do.
It's the meat and potatoes.
Q: Is that where most of the parent involvement is?
A: A lot of the phone calls are going to be from parents who
want to plan out their... Especially here. They want to be
sure that the kid takes the right classes so that they will
be eligible for college in four years. They do have plans
and goals for their kids. If their kid is having difficulty
in certain classes, what can we do about that? Should my
child go to summer school to remediate this grade? A lot of
the questions are going to be related to academics, because
we're a school. It's what we do most of. But every now and
then... You know, I had a phone call before from a parent
who told me that her daughter was... Someone tried to pull
her into a truck on the way home from school yesterday, and
yeah, the kid was scared. I mean, legitimately. Why not?
That's a frightening experience. You know, it's things like
that that happen to make you realize that there's something
more than just providing some guidance in academic areas.
Sometimes parents will raise questions that make you think.
Like we provide certain programs at certain times of the
year, and they will raise the question of "Why didn't you do
it before rather than now?" You realize that you can learn
from them, because we fall into that we think we know what
we need to do, and sometimes we don't listen as well as we
should, in terms of what they need.
Q: And then do you find yourself accommodating those who raise
the questions?
A: Yeah, I think we have to do. Because we're dealing with the
public here. I think that's happening with schools in
general. People are telling us more and more and more what
they want. And one of the problems is that we're trying to
provide it, and that becomes difficult.
Q: Can you think of an example of something that you changed?
A: Well, I'm thinking in terms of guidance right now. Some of
the programs that we provide we may have to provide earlier.
We do a College Night for Juniors program, and we've always
traditionally done it in April. The idea is to kick off the
senior year, get these kids... We usually do it in April
because that's a time when we are available. We have to do
certain things during the year, and that happens to be a
dead time. It is also a time when you tend to get some
attention. The juniors are going into their senior year,
and they are ripe. We gave the program this last April, and
some of the comments from the parents were, "You need to do
this sooner." Well, we have a program just for the students
at the beginning of the year. It's not of the scale of this
program. This program includes the parents; so the parents
may not be aware that we've already spoken with the juniors
previously. But there appears to be, and especially in this
school, the feeling of getting on things earlier. And it
made me think that if we can't do it earlier in the year
because of our responsibilities and schedules, maybe we need
to do it at the end of the sophomore year. Maybe we need to
have a like program at the end of the sophomore year that
would accommodate people who are saying, "Oh, this is too
late. I needed to know this information before." So that's
something that I'm thinking about that maybe we need to
develop for next year.
Q: And you said that more and more this school, like other
schools, are needing to make changes to accommodate.
A: I think that's what the public is telling us.
Q: And you said that sometimes it's not so good.
A: Well, we're in hard times in education right now. We're
being asked to do a whole lot. We're being asked to do a
lot of individual work. You know, when I was in elementary
school teaching, that came with the territory. You more or
less did that. You knew that you had to individualize for
kids, and you had your little groups. There is not that...
You don't do as much of that in high school, but we still
have parents who are asking for that kind of individual
attention. I think an example of what we're seeing are the
ADHD kids. It's becoming more and more prevalent that
teachers are being asked to modify how they are teaching and
how they are interacting with certain children; and it's
hard when you have 38 or 50 children. A parent might be
saying, "Well, my kid can't take a multiple choice test,"
and that teacher uses the scanner. That means there has to
be some... You know, that's a problem that has to be
solved. I think there are more and more... We certainly
have seen more dysfunctional families. There is more of a
service for counseling. A year ago a teacher spearheaded a
program that trained teachers to co-lead support groups,
because we could see that it's not just the counselors that
could run support groups. In other words, the counselor
could not provide the kinds of attention that kids really
needed, and there were a number of teachers who became
trained, and we have a number of support groups. Again,
that was being asked for. You can sense that from the
population that you're dealing with, not just emotionally,
but academically as well. One of the problems is that of
the economic times. We don't have the money, or you could
provide more individual attention. That's where the bind
is, and I don't think we're going to see a solution for
awhile. It's going to be hard.
Q: Can you tell me about an incidence in which your work life
was influenced or shaped by the students?
A: There's always something that happens with a kid that makes
you, you... Here today I had this rough and tumble kid,
who's a senior _____________ as if he's a ninth grader.
He's in that 30%. He's not going to darken the doors of a
college. He is one of my vocational students, a very
marginal kid in terms of school. He comes to school because
that's where his peer group is. He abuses attendance. He's
been suspended a couple of times for infractions, nothing
terrible. But someone brought him in today. The kid is
sobbing away because he broke up with his girlfriend, and
his heart was breaking. Here's a kid... I mean who would
have envisioned that he had such a feeling level, because
this is a kid who has always been rather blas. You know, I
remember saying to him a couple of weeks ago, (his mother
calls in every now and then because he's in jeopardy of not
graduating because he's messing around with his attendance)
and I said to him, "You don't do this to your mother,
because your mother wants to see you walk across that
stage." So I take more of that role, and here this kid
needed someone to nurture and baby him today; and it made me
think that I've only seen one side of him over these years.
Here something had occurred. You know, he sat in that
rocker, and he was embarrassed to be crying, but he couldn't
stop. I think when something like that happens, there is so
much more to these little people who are running around
here. Again, we get so focused on one thing, and sometimes
we (inaudible).
Q: A different kind of question here, but can you describe from
your own experience, or that of someone you know directly
any creative attempt to improve the classroom teaching
methods, curriculum, student achievement that was thwarted
or substantially altered by any of these sources? I'm not
sure how that affects you in counseling; but take any
innovative idea that came out of the counseling department,
have you come across a barrier?
A: I think our barriers have been... The barriers are there.
We've had ideas that have been taken over by other people.
I think one of the mistakes we made in this department was
not blowing our own horns a little bit more. Maybe letting
people know what... taking more credit for the kinds of you
know... putting our names on things. Awhile back, I started
a counseling newsletter. I felt like that was a way
information... That went to the public. A couple of times
it was printed. It was a lot of work, and we did it once a
semester.
Q: It went to the parents?
A: It went to the parents, and it was a counseling newsletter;
and it talked about just the kinds of things that you
want... The kinds of information it had, I thought it would
be good public relations, as well as letting people know. I
guess I editorialized greatly, and in retrospect, probably I
was right. In no uncertain terms, it was taken away from
me. It was something I had created and...
Q: Who did it?
A: Oh, the administration. It was a new administration at the
time, through the assistant principal. In retrospect, we
had a kind of a bad opening to school, and I was speaking to
that. It was really bothering me that we could not provide
the service that we wanted to do; and the reason we didn't
provide the service was because other people providing the
service to us didn't do their part. What happens, one of
the problems in counseling, especially with schedules, is
that the counselor will always be blamed, even though we
don't control the master schedule. We don't have control,
we don't create it, but we have to deal with it and we have
to deal with the public, and it doesn't work. That's what
I'm doing now. You know, I'm resolving schedule conflicts,
and I see in the master that there's a mistake. Now, if I
had input, I would not have made that mistake. I can see a
mistake. Someone made a bad decision here, and as a result
I'm having... All of the conflicts that I have looked at
are a result of that mistake. Now, I have to deal with the
public on this, and they don't know that I have no control
over that master, and I think that's what happens to us a
lot. I feel very committed to the department, because
having been a department chair for a number of years, you
get... I feel ownership here, and you want to try and
protect it. And that's what I was attempting to do, explain
that we do want to provide a service for you. We didn't do
a real good job of it, but understand that there were some
situations we had no control over. Well, like I said, that
was too much editorializing. What I realized then was
perhaps we had an administration that didn't want to deal in
the realities, that only wanted to deal in what would look
good. If we had a newsletter that just said the good
things. I'm a realist. I know that you have to play that
game in education. I don't have to like it.
Q: Can you describe for me a failed attempt by any of these
sources D school board, parents students D any failed
attempts by these sources to influence you that you
resisted, and what are the ways that you have been able to
work around these situations?
A: I think there has been some resistance to this advisory.
Even I have resisted, because, again, you feel ownership in
the department, and it hasn't been done to our enhancement.
But there is a point at which you say, "I don't, I do not
have to be the victim," and you go on from there. I can't
think of... I'm sure there have been times when I have been
thwarted. I just don't concentrate on them. It's like, I
feel thwarted in this job every day, because a counseling
job is so global and so generalist. I mean, we do
everything. We have our fingers in everything. In many
ways, I think we don't do anything well as a result, because
we are generalists. I think if we spent our time trying to
make everything perfect, we wouldn't get anything done. So,
as a result, if you want to get anything done, you just do
it, you just do it. And maybe the situation isn't the best.
Like I'm doing something now, and I know that I'm working
under pressure. You know, I can see some mistakes here; but
I'm going to go ahead and resolve these conflicts anyway,
because they have to be done. The bottom line is that these
kids have to have a schedule. Now I can sit back and say,
"This is going to change," but that doesn't get the work
done. And I think I generally tend to take that attitude
when someone puts a stumbling block. I think in this
business there are a lot of stumbling blocks, if you don't
find a way of going around it.
Q: What does it mean to you when people talk about bureaucratic
constraints on teachers?
A: Well, I think we have a lot of state regulations. I'll give
you an example. A parent called me who wanting the kids to
be able to take the bus. This was a student outside of our
boundaries. If a student comes to us from outside the
boundaries, they have to provide the transportation. I
forget. It was an emergency, and the mother was saying,
"Can't my kid just take the bus to the boundary of the bus
and then walk home from there?" It sounded okay to me. I
mean, let's help the woman out. There was some situation.
It turns out that because of insurance we couldn't do it.
She had to write a letter saying it's okay for my kid to get
off the bus at Tatum and walk across Tatum Boulevard. In
other words, releasing the District from responsibility, and
the student was not able to even get on the bus because the
bus was full. And I'm thinking, "All this money, all this
just to get a child home from school." When you're dealing
with something like that, you become aware of all the
constraints. I had a student come in today and say, "I
can't take 7-8 French here, because it conflicts with
Leadership. Can't I go over to another high school and take
it?" I said, "Don't even ask. First of all, you'd have to
leave 20 minutes out of one hour, you'd have the insurance
problem of traveling from here to the next school, you're
arriving late for class." I mean, it doesn't fit.
Sometimes some of the things that you think you can
accommodate, you suddenly realize that there are other
constraints. I always am very careful when I am talking to
parents and talking to kids, because there might be
something I don't know. My example is that woman. I said,
"Oh, sure he can take the bus home." So, I think there is a
lot of that, and I think, in fairness, from my position, I
am not always aware. I think the administrators are aware,
and certainly the people at the District office are perhaps
more aware of those kinds of constraints. We complain at
lot at this level, and certainly in the classrooms, perhaps
unfairly.
Q: The last question, this probably does not apply to you.
Rank the following activities according to the degree of
control and discretion you are able to exercise.
A: I don't have a context. In terms of what I can do in this
department, really, all the programs that we've come up
with, some of them have been taken over. We came up with an
eighth grade orientation many years ago, and that's now
being done by the administration. I'm not sure we ever
received any credit for having the idea. What is being done
now is a far better program than what we had, but it's
better because the administration is involved. When we were
doing it, it was just us, and we didn't have that kind of...
When you get more people involved in something, your program
sometimes is a better one than your original program. So
I'm very pleased with what's occurring here. I wish we had
gotten some credit for it. In terms of, I'm looking here
where it says selection of content, we do have some control
over what we want to do. We have developed a ninth grade
program for parents and kids that we provide at the
beginning of the year in the first semester. It's a program
essentially trying to orientate the student and parents when
making a four-year plan. We talk about things like college,
life after high school, and I feel very good about that
program. Your ninth grade parent, not so much the kid, but
your ninth grade parent is usually very receptive. I think
it's developed into a very good program. It just happened.
We decided to do it. No one said, "Oh, you can't do that."
Not that anybody would.
Q: It sounds like you're basing it on what you perceive the
parent needs to be aware of.
A: Yeah, again, most of your phone calls are going to come from
ninth grade parents. Most of that in.. It's a big step
going from middle school to ninth grade, and you can meet
the needs by providing program like this. We offer it over
a three-week period. We offer it in the day and a couple of
different nights, and people can... It's not like a one
shot deal. So we've had some opportunity to be creative.
Q: And one last thing, I think just the first question may fit
your circumstance, but the others I don't think so.
A: In this District anything that becomes policy has input from
the teachers. We have a very strong union that I think that
these would be fore us, because we are asked what we want
for in-service programs. In class (unclear word), yes,
we've just had a B level committee this last year. B is our
remedial level. We talked and we determined how we wanted
to run this. I think establishing a school curriculum, that
may not be done so much at this level, but we do have
representation at the district level. We are a school
district, then, in fact sometimes I think we have too many
people. There's always a kid there, there's always a
parent, there's always someone from the XXEA, there's always
someone from the administration. There are ongoing